Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Some of the Bulk Buys may look bad on the Front Page of the Daily News...

Published: Saturday, July 1, 2006

Police, agents empty house of weapons stockpile

The cache included assault rifles, a bazooka, grenades and ammo.

By PATRICIA MEADE

VINDICATOR CRIME REPORTER

YOUNGSTOWN — Randy Telshaw's stockpile for Y2K included all the components needed to make a bomb "half the size that took out the federal building in Oklahoma City," a bomb technician said.

Y2K, the "year 2000" problem linked to computer calendars, caused fear among many who believed critical services such as electricity would be disrupted. Worldwide, many people stockpiled food and water and bought generators.

"We understand he's a Y2K survivalist, but this is over the top," said Lou Ciavarella, a technician with the Youngstown Police Department Bomb Squad. Telshaw "had more smokeless powder than a sporting goods store carries in a year."

He said despite all the powder for loading bullets, no equipment to complete the task was found.

Ciavarella said there was "no excuse for the way he stored ammonium nitrate."

The agricultural fertilizer, mixed with a racing fuel, was used in April 1995 to blow up the Alfred P. Murrah Building in Oklahoma City, killing 168. The bomb was delivered in a rental truck.

At Telshaw's two-story brick house at 611 Ferndale Ave. on the South Side, 80-pound bags of ammonium nitrate were among the items on pallets removed Friday afternoon. Ciavarella said some unstable ingredients in containers, "explosive as they sit," were also removed.


"We were all very concerned about the potential for destruction we had here," said Detective Sgt. Joe DeMatteo, head of the bomb squad. Separately, he said, the items Telshaw stockpiled are legal, but when found together present a problem, much as the over-the counter ingredients found in methamphetamine labs.

When asked if items found in the house, such as maps, indicated Telshaw intended to blow up a government building, for example, DeMatteo said there was no evidence of such a plan. He said detectives will learn more after interviewing Telshaw, 53, who has lived on Ferndale about 15 years.

DeMatteo said members of the Explosive Ordnance Detachment at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton were called in to examine a cache of weapons taken from Telshaw's 78-year-old house.

Police, after waiting for a search warrant, collected six assault-type rifles, a shotgun, box after box of .762-caliber ammunition, grenades, a Ruger pistol, a bazooka (likely World War II vintage), roughly 300 to 400 pounds of smokeless powder, inert mortar shells and much more. Some of the boxes were labeled "made in Russia."

The stockpile's discovery

The cache, found in an attic crawl space, was destined for destruction at an old strip mine on state Route 170 in Petersburg.

Police were alerted to the potentially dangerous situation inside Telshaw's home Thursday evening when a friend, 48-year-old Arlie Utsinger of Boardman, went to check on the place and found the door open. Telshaw had been shot in both arms by intruders around 1:15 a.m. Thursday and asked Utsinger to check the house and ask neighbors to keep an eye on the place.

Bob Miller, resident agent in charge of the local federal bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, said the ammonium nitrate bags taken from Telshaw's house will be stored in a bunker until a determination is made about filing charges against Telshaw. ATF rented a large truck to haul away the fertilizer and smokeless powder. Miller would not reveal the bunker's location, saying only that it is in Ohio.

Militia-type training manuals and underground bomb-making how-to books were found in the house that sits just off Glenwood Avenue. Police also found bondage magazines.

The bomb squad was assisted at the scene by FBI and ATF agents and Youngstown firefighters. The Salvation Army sent a canteen truck with beverages and snacks for those who put in a long day sorting and cataloging Telshaw's unusual collection of survival gear and hazardous materials.

In Telshaw's bedroom, investigators found a net strung tight about three feet off the floor (picture a boxing ring) and a blanket resting on the hammock-type bed. Shades were drawn on all windows, giving the house a somewhat mysterious appearance.

Four or five refrigerators were found in the house, one with at least 30 pumpkin pies and containers of CoolWhip, said Bob DiMaiolo, a bomb squad technician.

Once the dangerous materials were out of the house, disposable cylinders of air conditioning refrigerant — about a dozen cases of the expensive coolant — were removed on a flatbed truck by Telshaw's longtime friends, Utsinger and Julie Brauer of Austintown. Utsinger, who has a towing company, said he'll hold onto the property until Telshaw is released from the hospital.

Friends and neighbors react

"This is sad," Utsinger and Brauer said of their friend's predicament. Neither was aware of what Telshaw, whom they described as autistic, had stockpiled.

"He bought generators for light, and he bought extra food," Utsinger said of Telshaw's efforts to be prepared for Y2K. The preparations began in 1999.

"He works every day; he wouldn't hurt a fly," Brauer, 33, said. "He had been a good friend of my dad's, and I sort of inherited him."

Brauer and Utsinger said Telshaw worked for a recycling business and loved to work on cars and fix refrigerators. They said Telshaw never married and lived alone.

Telshaw's friends said they don't want to see him portrayed as some kind of terrorist. He was a man with tunnel vision who focused on the Y2K threat and didn't mean anyone harm, Utsinger said.

Around noon Friday, neighbors close to Telshaw's house were told to evacuate for at least two hours while Ciavarella and Greg Miller, another bomb squad technician, donned protective suits and removed explosive materials from the house. Patrolmen Russ Davis and Richard Gresh went door-to-door to explain the situation.

The 600 block of Ferndale is quiet and tree-lined, with neat yards and 1920-era houses that feature expansive porches. Friday, the street was clogged with safety forces vehicles.

Some evacuated neighbors only went as far as the yellow police tape wrapped around trees in the 500 block of Ferndale and then sat in lawn chairs to watch the activity at Telshaw's.

Most of Telshaw's neighbors barely knew him.

"I'd see him when he'd go to work," said 40-year-old Lisa McCall, who lives next door to Telshaw at 609 Ferndale. "He stayed to himself. There were no visitors that I saw. He talks to himself — he'd come out of the house talking to himself all the time."

At 623 Ferndale, two doors down from Telshaw, Eula Denson and Shirley Bailey sat on their porch most of Friday watching the drama unfold. Denson, 69, who lives upstairs, said she'd usually see Telshaw leave for work around 6:30 a.m. Bailey, 55, said she, too, would see him coming and going, but that was it.

The women admitted they were shocked to learn what had been stockpiled in Telshaw's house.

D'Von Saunders, 30, of 538 Ferndale said police should have evacuated the neighbors Thursday night and put everyone up in motels. He said he was concerned about his wife and three children, in the event Telshaw's house blew up.

"I didn't know anybody stayed there," said Dana McClendon, 24. She lives across the street and five doors down from Telshaw.


---------------------------------------------------------------

www.wkbn.com/news/local/3278091.html

Valley Man Relives Attack
Friday, June 30th - this was the video seen locally and regionally. Randy Telshaw's Ferndale home swarming with law enforcement after police discover weapons, grenades and more stockpiled inside - reportedly in preparation for Y2K.

What you HAVEN'T heard is why police were called to his home in the first place and how this 53 year old man survived a vicious robbery and ambush. Strange noises roused Telshaw out of bed the morning of June 29th. Moments later - - Telshaw walks into the room and meets his intruders.

He says one suspect was hiding in the closet and another was peeking around the door. Bloody and terrified, Telshaw stumbled to a phone he'd been shot in both arms.

After police came, the focus quickly turned from Telshaw's ordeal to the contents in his home, which he didn't want to talk about. But he did tell us he's moving OUT of the neighborhood, his friends helping him move as his shattered arms are healing in casts.

It's still not clear if Telshaw committed any crime by having the old weapons in his home. No suspects have been identified in the attack on Telshaw, who says he is moving out of Youngstown.

Story Created: Jul 5, 2006 at 8:18 AM EST
Story Updated: Jul 5, 2006 at 8:40 AM EST

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

And that's one reason as to why I don't keep any firearms or other "goodies" anywhere in my property...... but I can get to them in ten minutes.

As we used to say at one of my old jobs "My place is sanitized". :proud:

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Was any of this stuff actually illegale or are the Cops over reaching?

The Article didn't say if he had a license for the weapons or not.

E-A

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Nothing illegal that I can see. "Still trying to find charges"

My 'stuff' would make good press as well.

another one bites the dust

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

I would say its just to make people that own Guns look weird and dangerous.

I would like to see him sue to get his property back.

E-A

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Note how the article says he had powder, but implied that he did not have presses or lead.

I think there's more to this story than meets the eye: Perhaps there is equipment to reload, as well as seeds and gradening tools to explain the fertilizer.

Or perhaps this guy likes bombs.

I wonder what the real story is.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Ciavarella said there was "no excuse for the way he stored ammonium nitrate."

And YET it sat undisturbed for AT LEAST SIX YEARS and didn't 'BLOW UP' on it's own, given the way he stored it.

This is yet another story of cops stretching the truth to make a bust look viable. When it becomes illegal to store powder, bullets, cases and primers there are going to be A LOT MORE STORIES LIKE THIS.

As it stands right now, the BATF, in conjuction with ammunition manufacturers have driven the price of ammo through the roof. Your whiz bang semi-auto firearm makes a pretty poor club. Especially if you don't have any ammo for it.

Another one bites the dust...

Hey Ponce, what if you don't HAVE TEN MINUTES? Then what are you going to do??? Surrender????

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Exactly, I laughed so hard when I read that in the article...like that was demonstrating some sort of deviant behavior. Man oh man am I glad mine are Apple pies.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

So essentially they are saying he had fertilizer and a whole lot of pie. And smokeless powder. Clearly, they do not even suspect him of bad motives, yet they ransacked his house.

Oh well. I have seen a local news show display a 22 rifle and an air pistol and say 'arsenal found'. It's grotesque.

How did we drift to a place where police feel ok about acting like that? No respect for a guy's home at all and making somebody's dietary habits a big deal if they are not.. I don't know, pizza delivery eating, Good Housekeeping decorating robots or something.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

ammonium nitrate.......ammonium nitrate.......ammonium nitrate.....ammonium nitrate


If you repeat it often enough in the media, it will become accepted at truth that you can actually make much of a 'bomb' out of the crap. Rock drillers use it as a 'heaving' helper in a drilled rock hole because it's cheaper than more dynamite. Mixed with diesel fuel, it's a low order explosive WHICH ABSOLUTELY HAS NO DADGUM WAY to 'blow down' a building from a truck in the street.

But I guess it makes every corn and tobbacco farmer a 'potential terrorist'.

As to "improperly" storing it, left on a pallet, even in a covered shed, it tends to absorb moisture out of the air and wet/clump to the point it won't even run thru a fertilizer spreader...you have to throw it out by hand and disc it up to get it on the ground.

The punkin pie inventory is really funny, but having the PO-lice paw thru all your stuff is the real crime here.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

No truer words ever spoken. And ANYONE, including those morons in the various alphabet agencies, that knows one :censored: thing about explosives knows it.
Just their excuse to take a dump on the constitution once again and have the sheep gratefully bleat their thanks for protecting them from the boogeyman.

If this guy had like minded neighbors, he likely would not have been assaulted by the thugs in the first place, and not secondarily robbed by the *other* thugs (the ones with badges).

Shameful.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Amen, brother Andy. I've stuck to that story since the beginning. Factor in that McVeigh was not a member of any patriot or militia group, but had just a short while before been a high speed squared away Federal soldier who went to Special Forces school, got flunked, went from sugar to shizznat and then blew up OKC, well, you know the drill. Oh, yeah, and the ATF who had an office in the Murrah building for some reason decided not to show up that day.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

This is very, very suspicious.

Was he an international double agent man?:D

I think we should witch hunt everyone thats like him.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Don't you mean pumpkin pie.....pumpkin pie.....pumpkin pie? Anyone who had thirty pumpkin pies in one of his four refrigerators with cool whip, no less, is obviously a terrorist. :smokin:

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Or his mama REALLY REALLY REALLY loves him !

Pumkin is one of my favorite 12 kinds of pie !

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

From Wallew = Hey Ponce, what if you don't HAVE TEN MINUTES? Then what are you going to do??? Surrender????

Wallew? a firearm does not a weapon make........ I din't say that I din't have any weapons but that I didn't have any firearms here :haha:

If you get trapped into the mentality that only a firearm is a weapon then you are not a true survivalist.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Maybe Ponce keeps his fingernails real long so he can scratch up those guys real bad if they try to pull anything funny on him ...

:thrasher:

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Great thread guys.
And if anyone actually buys the OKC story, boy, do I have a bridge for you!

Maranatha

:smile:

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

hehehe..."PONCE the SLasher!"...hahahha:wazzup_sg

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

You guys are pretty close to the truth.......all I need is my Katana and my underground scape tunnel.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

OK Andy. I'll bite. What are the other eleven?

And do you wash them down with Jack Daniels or wimp it out with milk?

:thrasher:

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

In no particular order of preference, any being acceptable for dessert:

Key Lime

Apple

Cherry

Peach

Pecan

Strawberry

Blackberry ( which 'technically' is a cobbler, but don't tell my mouth)

Boston Cream

Lemon Cheffon

Bannana Cream

Coconut Cream


Washed down by a tall glass of iced tea.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Andy, sounds like PIE HEAVEN to me.

Bon appetit!

:cheerful:

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Mmmmmmmmm PIE! But you need milk!

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

You got it MTM, only milk goes with apple or peach pie yum yum yum.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

The guy was shot in both arms in his own house, but that's no big deal - the real problem is how he lived his life.
Great objective reporting, we have references to;

Russian ammo (for all you cold war people)

Methamphetamine lab reference (for you war on drug fanatics)

Bondage magazines - he's a pervert, probably wants your kids as well...thought crime yet to be established - be sure that when we check his seized computer, we'll find something.

OKC reference (for all you that believe a truck full of fertilizer can blow OUT the walls of a building) Unless they were refering to the 2 other bombs found inside the building - maybe that's how big his stash was.

Neighbors testifying that he was a loner and talked to himself - obviously fitting a dangerous profile

Waiting to determine charges - implying guilt, we just can't decide which crime he committed...maybe we need some more laws to make that job easier.


Poor guy - he's the victim of a violent crime yet it looks like the most viscious assailant is going to be the state, fed and ATF - what a free country we live in, where even if you don't break any laws, that doesn't mean you're not guilty....possibly we can find a thought crime somewhere.

Great job on the objective reporting - doing the public such a great service, and effectively tainting the potential jury pool

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Good point !! Even though the Three Stooges threw them in everyone's faces, didn't mean that an apple or two couldn't have taken an eye out. Also, if all of them fell on an infant that wandered aimlessly into his house, that child might suffocate so indeed you are correct, hoarding pies is reckless endangerment and he should be prosecuted....for the sake of the children :musicus:

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

No firearms in the house, and a secret escape tunnel.....Holy Wack!!!!.....IT'S TRUE!!!!!.....and now we all know his true identity.....Ponce is.....


BATMAN!!!!!!

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

That's right.

Along with his other dastardly anti-social traits he was ...

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

a HOARDER!!!

Clearly a heavy sentence is in order here.

I mean, guys who hoard anything and especially PUMPKIN PIES are a clear danger to society.

I mean, maybe he was planning to build a PUMPKIN PIE BOMB!

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

I thought I was Batman.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

:rant: The guy was a victim of a nasty home invasion.........probably lucky to be alive.Shot in both arms..............triple bummer......

Can't see any justification for the SWAT tactics and police investigation that turned the poor guy into a closet terrorist because he was stockpiling survival goods.

If that's how the police and his neighborhood views any individual who plans ahead,we're all going down.............:eek:

I better get rid of my five pound bag of Miracle Grow before I'm arrested for hoarding bomb making supplies............:D

Ammo ? 10,000 rounds minimum of assorted calibers..........plus a couple of dozen huge cases of shotgun shells..............guess that makes me a friggin' terrorist by their definition.......

Pretty soon we will arrive at a ratio of 1 person of uncommon sense to 100,000 JSP morons..........probably already have,I just don't want to admit things have reached this low level of national stupidity......

Oh yeah.........better get rid of those Russian Binoculars........wouldn't want to be caught with night vision hardware........that would be definitive proof I had terrorist tendencies............probably get five extra years in the big house for that............

What am I going to do with 100 lbs of green beans in the freezer ?

I am screwed......................

:D :D :D :D

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Very good thread indeed. And appropriately titled. All jokes aside, RiverRat is right. Any number of us on this thread probably meet or exceed the criteria for attracting the unwanted attention of certain authorities. Easy enough to secure a warrant to search your premises on an "anonymous tip" and "observation" of suspicious activity/purchases/behavior etc. Raid you, trot out your stash and weapons as proof you were up to something nefarious, have the media portray you as a gun-nut/survivalist/loner. Mention a couple of boogey-men like McViegh and the Unabomber in the same newspaper article and viola! Instant homegrown terrorist, tried and convicted in the court of public opinion.

Those in positions of authority absolutely HATE the thought of a person not dependant on the system. Makes them nervous to think a man has no use for them. Makes them crap their depends to know a man could stand in defiance of them.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Only a 1000 rounds? Slacker! That's just an afternoon at the range!

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Ain't that the truth. Seems the average person has forgotten the meaning of independence. People assume there must be something wrong with you if you don't want some type of authority to provide for your needs.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

:D I have found that talking about PMs and survival preparation among friends is a subject best left out of most conversations......

The group mentallity that JSP has will turn against everyone one of us here at GIM in the future..........that puzzles me to some degree........but in reality it fits the big picture perfectly..........

Group/Sheeple reaction to anyone better prepared to live apart and without the system they believe in scares them all so bad they crap all over themselves just thinking about what will happen to them if the system collapses........and they should.......the tragic truth is that they believe that the system will feed and protect them as long as they all stick together.......well........so be it..........GIM can't save the whole world........we are seriously at a numbers disadvantage...

It's like saying all people who save their money are evil.........just because JSP doesn't have any to save.....but instead blows it on $100.00 designer sneakers and $500.00 a month SUV payments for 72 months....and an adjustable mortgage on a home three times over his head in payments....

Yes.........most of the crew here at GIM are either hard core survivors or newbies working like hell to catch up to the lunatic fringe membership we are all part of.........we could all be arrested for suspicion of trying to survive...........they haven't passed a law against it yet..........but give them a little more time........anything could happen.

We are different..........maybe PMs are a magnet attracting the lunatics....but I'd rather be considered a survivor than a casualty when TSHTF..........hell we might be considered a cult to JSP........now that's a scary thought.......:D :D :D :D :D

The Church of Khan and Scorpio.......has an odd ring to it......Hmmmm..:eek:

Maybe we could get a tax exemption as a religious cult......:banana:

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Just messin' with ya! LOL

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Were talkin' lead, the copper jacketed kind. It comes on little brass tubes, and used properly it will protect your silver and gold!

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

I bet you don't have any werewolf problems either! LOL

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

With all due respect, personally I think there's far too much macho-type talk at GIM about
gunning down anyone who comes after your PMs.

It seems to me that talk such as this will only encourage gooberment types to suppose that
all PM owners are dangerous gun-totin' cats who need to be taken out.

If gooberment decides they want my little stash they're welcome to it.

Figure you could take on a SWAT team?

Talk about PMs + GUNS can only add up to one thing in simple minds.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

:eek: Posted by Jasper:

Jasper........Guilty as charged....:eek:

A lot of us talk the talk because we walk the walk..........I am a dangerous gun-totin' cat who will make front page news....ready to rock....bring it on.........come for my PMs,food or hurt my family...you can read about my death in the obituaries.......
I went through police SWAT training a few years back.............also pulled two tricks in Nam with Special Forces many years ago................not afraid to pull the trigger on any asshole dumb enough to walk on my property and demand I surrender all I have worked for to appease JSP and his hired help......that's blantant theft and martial law ain't going to cover their butt no matter which way they slice it.........

Not ranting at you Jasper,you have a cool reserved attitude,rare on GIM............love that avatar.....:D

What you say is good advice to all of us............in a way I suspect GIM is being monitored for just this type of scenario...........looking for subversive Americans who have the outright gall to hoard PMs and survival supplies to protect themselves from the so called collapse of the.............SYSTEM....I prefer to call it the Empire of Idiots myself.....but if we are being monitored............so what.........we still have (monitored) free speech on the Internet..........at least for now.......how long that will last is anybody's guess.........

Was that the red pill or the blue pill I was supposed to take ? :eek:

Uh Oh....the voices are back.........kill Richard Simmons.........kill Richard Simmons.....kill Richard Simmons.............

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

I can take out a SWAT team. I am armed, prepared and trained to do that kind of stuff. Besides, it isn't hard. Nobody is half as elite has they appear to be, oftentimes the bigger the bragging and reputation the bigger the disapointment will be when the rubber meets the road. The average thinking homeowner could defeat a dynamic entry team with creative use of household furniture, a couple ventilation fans and a pump shotgun. If my neighborhood were of like mind on a particular issue the stormtroopers were being sent to enforce, they'd never make it down the drive.

News Flash!: The .gov has long since determined you to be one of the badguys. If you own guns and/or gold, if you believe in traditional American values and have an active spiritual life, if you just want to be free to be yourself, you are a badguy in their eyes. The only question is how far down on the to-do list are you? Me, well, I'm awfully far down. I suspect the rest of the forumites are, too. In fact, we belong to the group that will be dealt with by batch process rather than individual intervention. There are no good or bad impressions to be made, they have their plan which they devised and you have no influence on it. Don't believe me? Wait till the 2008 elections. Actually, wait till 2009-2010 so we have some time to sit and watch it all play out.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Thanks, guys.

Guess you're just going to have to put me down as a wimp.

On my list of priorities I've always put health ahead of wealth.

As for my avatar, it accurately expresses how I feel most of the time.

Especially when I'm thinking about them.

But the fun that goes on at GIM helps cheer me up.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

River Rat? I was with the 5th when they were at Smoke Bomb Hill and then TDY for a certain civilian outfit (63-66)..... send me a pm as to who you were with and the year, maybe I know you, maybe you of me as the guy who took the place of the "dummy" at Disneyland without no one knowing about it and instead of getting a court martial got promoted.

Anyway, even if I do hold a lot of ammo I really don't believe in holding that much because if you cannot get more ammo from the invaders by the time you fired 1,000 rounds then you may as well be dead.

When I used to go in the field I used to carry a smaller load than most because I was counting in gettin more ammo either from those in our side or theirs.....the weapon did not matter that much.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Jasper, I wouldn't worry about the wimp thing. Some people are fighters, some are not, and it has nothing to do with personal courage or physical strength. It's just the same as some people are doctors, other people are mechanics, everybody has the role to play. Now, if I was in your position, maybe I'd hand over my gold, food or ammo to the nearest resistance fighterI could find and be done with it. It's a good way to screw TPTB, on one hand they don't get your stuff, on the other the guy you gave it to will bloody their nose.

As far as health Vs wealth goes, it's a tough call. It's easier to be healthy if you are wealthy, it's no coincidence the words rhyme. At the same time, you have to live to spend it. If I survive the meeting engagement I will break contact and go guerilla. The more people who feel this way and are willing to spread the word around, the more TPTB will realize that now is not an opportune time for instituting martial law or draconian policies. The bad sheppard and his sheepdogs are looking to lord it over docile sheep, they will not feel so emboldened if they realize they're dealing not with sheep but with rams, wolves and wild dogs. Nobody is affraid of the well kept pasture, but there are things in the woods that can eat you.

Ponce, I almost totally agree except for one thing; I've had a lot of guns pulled on me and you'd be suprised how many were either unloaded or didn't have much ammo. I'd definately make use of captured enemy weapons and ammo, but the kind of marauders we'd see in a societal collapse here in the US might not be so well equipped.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

This is an interesting point I hadn't thought of.

I begin to understand the position of you trained guys a bit better now.

Or maybe a lot better ...

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

United We Stand. :top:

...and that is the one thing that makes the real badguys shake in their boots. At the end of the day, there's still a whole lot more of "us" than there is of "them", and if the "us" was ever to become a "we" it'd be all over for "them." Every time we hope the shorts can't cover, we're thinking along those same lines.

Stories like those revealed in the topic thread come out occasionally. Sometimes they demonize the "hoarder" just like they demonize the "cultist" or "racist" or any other "ist" they can think of and call his house a "compound." It's supposed to scare us into believing the nail that stands up will be hammered down. The real lesson here is that we aren't alone, not by a longshot. I'm truly suprised that the information revolution hasn't already set the world free just by virtue of allowing people to get together and talk and realize that we really do have strength in numbers. Maybe it'll just take a while. I do believe that this forum and a million others on servers all over the world are doing the foundation work, putting ideas like liberty and unity in people's minds. Maybe it has forestalled that which we fear.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Big Brother doesn't know that I keep an extra package of ramen noodles hidden at the back of the pantry. You know, just-in-case...

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Great quote, Sukhoi!

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Hey Andy, didn't Ammonium nitrate do this?

The Texas City Disaster


April 16, 1947

The morning of 16 April 1947 dawned clear and crisp, cooled by a brisk north wind. Just before 8:00 A.M., longshoremen removed the hatch covers on Hold 4 of the French Liberty ship Grandcamp as they prepared to load the remainder of a consignment of ammonium nitrate fertilizer. Some 2,300 tons were already onboard, 880 of which were in the lower part of Hold 4. The remainder of the ship's cargo consisted of large balls of sisal twine, peanuts, drilling equipment, tobacco, cotton, and a few cases of small ammunition. No special safety precautions were in focus at the time.
Several longshoremen descended into the hold and waited for the first pallets holding the 100-pound packages to be hoisted from dockside. Soon thereafter, someone smelled smoke. A plume was observed rising between the cargo holds and the ships hull, apparently about seven or eight layers of sacks down. Neither a gallon jug of drinking water nor the contents of two fire extinguishers supplied by crew members seemed to do much good. As the fire continued to grow, someone lowered a fire hose, but the water was not turned on. Since the area was filling fast with smoke, the longshoremen were ordered out of the hold.
While Leonard Boswell, the gang foreman, and Peter Suderman, superintendent of stevedores, discussed what action to take, the master, or captain, of the Grandcamp appeared and stated in intelligible English that he did not want to put out the fire with water because it would ruin the cargo. Instead, he elected to suppress the flames by having the hatches battened and covered with tarpaulins, the ventilators closed, and the steam system turned on. At the masters request, stevedores started removing cases of small arms ammunition from Hold 5 as a precautionary measure. As the fire grew, the increased heat forced the stevedores and some crew members to leave the ship. The Grandcamp's whistle sounded an alarm that was quickly echoed by the siren of the Texas City Terminal Railway Company. despite a strike by the telephone workers, Suderman, seriously concerned by now, managed to reach the Fire Department and then called Galveston for a fire boat.
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Remains of a city fire truck
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One of the last photographs taken of the Texas City Volunteer Fire Department crew before the explosion.
It was now about 8:30. At this point, growing pressure from the compressed steam fed into Hold 4 blew off the hatch covers, and a thick column of orange smoke billowed into the morning sky. Attracted by its unusual color and the sirens, several hundred onlookers began gathering a few hundred feet away at the head of the ship. Twenty-six men and the four trucks of the Volunteer Fire Department, followed by the Republic Oil Refining Company fire-fighting team, arrived on the scene and set up their hoses. A photograph taken at approximately 8:45 shows at least one stream playing on the deck of the Grandcamp, which was apparently hot enough to vaporize the water.
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Firefighters spraying water on Grandcamps deck
Around 9:00, flames erupted from the open hatch, with smoke variously described as "a pretty gold, yellow color" or as "orange smoke in the morning sunlight...beautiful to see." Twelve minutes later, the Grandcamp disintegrated in a prodigious explosion heard as far as 150 miles distant. A huge mushroom like cloud billowed more than 2,ooo feet into the morning air, the shockwave knocking two light planes flying overhead out of the sky. A thick curtain of steel shards scythed through workers along the docks and a crowd of curious onlookers who had gathered at the head of the slip at which the ship was moored. Blast over pressure and heat disintegrated the bodies of the firefighters and ship's crew still on board. At the Monsanto plant, located across the slip, 145 of 450 shift workers perished. A fifteen-foot wave of water thrust from the slip by the force of the blast swept a large steel barge ashore and carried dead and injured persons back into the turning basin as it receded. Fragments of the Grandcamp, some weighing several tons, showered down throughout the port and town for several minutes, extending the range of casualties and property damage well into the business district, about a mile away. Falling shrapnel bombarded buildings and oil storage tanks at nearby refineries, ripping open pipes and tanks of flammable liquids and starting numerous fires. After the shrapnel, flaming balls of sisal and cotton from the ships cargo fell out of the sky, adding to the growing conflagration.
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A man walks below the 150' LONGHORN II that was washed ashore by the tidal wave created by the GRANDCAMP exploding. The arrow points toward a destroyed city fire truck twisted together with another vehicle and a large section of the GRANDCAMP.
This is from one of many post disaster postcards.

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Downtown business
The sheer power of the explosion and the towering cloud of black smoke billowing into the sky told everyone within twenty miles that something terrible had happened. People on the street in Galveston were thrown to the pavement, and glass store fronts shattered. Buildings swayed in Baytown fifteen miles to the north. The towering smoke column served as a grim beacon for motorists driving along the Houston-Galveston highway, some of whom immediately turned toward Texas City to help. In Texas City itself, stunned townspeople who started toward the docks soon encountered wounded persons staggering out of the swirling vortex of smoke and flame, most covered with a thick coat of black, oily water. many agonizing hours were to pass before a semblance of order began to replace the shock and confusion caused by this totally unexpected and devastating event.
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150ft barge LONGHORN II in background washed onshore by tidal wave
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AS SEEN FROM ACROSS THE BAY IN GALVESTON
As the surge of injured quickly overwhelmed the towns three small medical clinics, the city auditorium was pressed into service as a makeshift first-aid center. Within an hour doctors, nurses, and ambulances began arriving unsummoned from Galveston and nearby military bases. Serious casualties were taken to Galveston hospitals and later to military bases and even to Houston, fifty miles away. State troopers and law enforcement officers from nearby communities helped Texas City's seventeen-man police force maintain order and assisted in search and rescue.


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Another parking lot, no vehicles were spared
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Ground zero on other side of fire and smoke
The Grandcamp's explosion triggered the worst industrial disaster, resulting in the largest number of casualties, in American history. Such was the intensity of the blasts and the ensuing confusion that no one was able to establish precisely the number of dead and injured. Ultimately, the Red Cross and the Texas Department of Public Safety counted 405 identified and 63 unidentified dead. Another 100 persons were classified as "believed missing" because no trace of their remains was ever found. Estimates of the injured are even less precise but appear to have been on the order of 3,500 persons. Although not all casualties were residents of Texas City, the total was equivalent to a staggering 25 percent of the towns estimated population of 16,000. Aggregate property loss amounted to almost $100 million, or more than $700 million in todays monetary value. Even so, this figure may be to low, because this estimate does not include 1.5 million barrels of petroleum products consumed in flames, valued at approximately $500 million in 1947 terms. Refinery infrastructure and pipelines, including about fifty oil storage tanks, incurred extensive damage or total destruction. The devastated Monsanto plant alone represented about $ 20 million of the total. Even though the port's break-bulk cargo-handling operations never resumed, Monsanto was rebuilt in little more than a year, and the petrochemical industry recovered quickly. One-third of the town's 1,519 houses were condemned, leaving 2,000 persons homeless and exacerbating an already-serious postwar housing shortage. Over the next six months, displaced victims returned as houses were repaired or replaced, and most of those who suffered severe trauma appear to have recovered relatively quickly. What could never be made good was the grief and bleak future confronting more than 800 grieving widows, children, and dependent parents.
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House fire caused by explosionhttp://www.local1259iaff.org/disaster11.JPG
City blocks destroyed

The burial service for the unidentified dead was held Sunday morning, June 22, 1947 at 10:00 A.M. Despite the fact that there was very little advance publicity, cars were park a mile and a half up and down the highway, and the crowd was estimated at 5,ooo. The sixty-three caskets were brought from Camp Wallace by separate hearses from fifty-one participating funeral homes in twenty-eight cities. It was a striking procession, probably the longest in the history of funeral services. Each casket was carried by pallbearers from the American Legion, V.F.W., Labor Organizations and Volunteer Firemen. Each was decorated with a spray of flowers, gifts of the Florist Association.
In this small plot of ground, at the time of the service only a scarred prairie, were placed the remains of sixty-three unidentified dead, each in its own casket, each in its own lined grave~numbered and recorded so that if a new inquiry were ever necessary the information would be available. No one else ever has ever been buried in this cemetery; no one else ever will be. It stands as a resting place for those unidentified, and a memorial for all those who suffered during that time.

The Memorial Cemetery in Texas City is located on the northern edge of town, where Loop 197 joins Twenty-Ninth Street. It still resembles the 1947 landscape design by Houston artist Herbert Skogland but is not identical to it. Before the 1991 enlargement it was a grassy plot, roughly two acres in size and surrounded by a stone wall. It was presided over by an angel of Italian marble. The stone pillars on either side of a wrought iron gate were simply inscribed "Memorial Cemetery Texas City 1947." Inside remains a rectangular grassy lot with a oval pathway inside. In the pool, in a small concrete circle, stands the marble angel, her eyes downcast and her fingers perpetually strewing a marble flower. The base is inscribed "Texas City Volunteer Firemen."
The bodies were buried in three neat rows on either side of the pool, inside the oval. Each site was originally marked with a piece of granite bearing a number which links it to a paper listing everything known about the human being who lies there. In the years between 1947 and 1991 when the cemetery was enlarged and refurbished as a WAR AND PEACE MEMORIAL, many of the small markers were lost, moved, or buried in the thatch grass. When the cemetery was enlarged, the remaining markers were relocated within a brick wall. Thus, it is that now the remains are truly anonymous, known only to God.
Who then is buried in the little cemetery? No one will ever no for certain, but among the missing are nineteen members of the Volunteer Fire Department, thirty-one members of the crew of the Grandcamp, and several school children who had been on the pier watching the fire. Also among the missing are Victor Wehmeyer, the funeral director; H.J. Mikeska, President and General Manager of the Texas City Terminal Railway; longshoremen; employees of Monsanto, Republic, and the Texas City Terminal; sightseers; and others whose fate it was to be in the plant or on the dock that day.

The Grandcamp's plaque and anchor pictured below as well as the propeller are what I took around Texas City. They will always be just a part of the reminder of what took place that fateful day on April 16, 1947.


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Another anchor from Grandcamp now located at entrance to the Dike
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Plaque located to left of anchor
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Propeller from the Highflyer located at the Texas City Terminal Railway
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Plaque located beneath propeller

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Definitively proves TnAndy's point. Relativley little explosive damage when you consider that the GrandCamp had over 4 MILLION pounds of Ammonium Nitrate and the HighFlyer had around 2 MILLION pounds on board. The majority of the galveston damage came from the tidal wave and fires resultant from the GrandCamp explosion but not directly due to concussive force. Imagine 4 MILLION pounds of TNT. There would have been nothing left to write an article about. Orders of magnitude difference.
OKC official story is that 5000 pounds of ANFO destroyed half a reinforced concrete structure from street level 100 feet away outside , yet didn't knock out street lights directly across from the van.
ANFO is simply too low an order explosive to have done what they claim. Just will not happen.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

.........and if like the average gun nut, you own too many guns, not enough ammunition, and cant use them effectively, you aint a true survivalist either!

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

I wouldnt use deadly force against lawfully constituted authorities. But I will use lawyers and courts and I will use them effectively against anybody that crosses me public or private. So any "LE" that if ever, elects to search my person or abode had better cross their is and dot their ts or they will be looking at loosing their paycheck and ending up on the wrong end of an expensive lawsuit.

Rather than all run off and play Randy Weaver, we ought to be more involved in using the tools that the system provides. Stop retreating!

I am no Artie Wheeler I tell you that. I have my opinions, I stand by them, I'm not afraid for them to become known, and if I'm wronged I will seek redress effectively. I don't quake and quaver in my boots in front of "ZOG" or "TPTB" or any other bogeymen real or imagined. Que sera sera!

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Thanks, didn't put all that into consideration.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Anty Ep:

Sorry to inform you that declared nationwide martial law by presidential order excludes any and all private or public litigations...........maybe permanently.....so you better start working on Plan B as soon as possible.

We're not talking about how it should go down with normal laws and court systems..........we're talking about legalized anarchy enforced by your Officer Joe Friendly and your state National Guard,maybe a few batallions of military thrown in if the peasants get a little squirrely.........

You need to wake up..........the America you know and trust is about to turn on all of us like we were pond scum waiting to be sanitized and reprocessed as dog chow.............it's not a matter of if............it's a matter of when.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

No prob.
ANFO is the most widely used explosive mixture in one form or another in the world. It's an inexpensive, handy tool and can be devastating when used incorrectly. However, it is still a low order explosive. Only 2/10ths the power of TNT. A one ton ANFO bomb won't even knock the tin off a poorly constructed barn from the inside out. (I know.) In fact, it won't even knock a person over at 500 feet.
McVeigh could have stolen or made any number of things that would have been far more effective. Still though, the fact remains that at that distance, even a high order explosive, meticulously shaped for maximum "monroe effect" would have trouble destroying the Murrah building. Unless it was inside. Then, you could accomplish the same thing with relatively little explosive mass.

There had to be some high order cutters (OCTOL, SEMTEX, pure RDX, etc)on the support columns in the garage. No other way it would have come down like it did IMHO.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

shhhhhhhhhhh............

You never know who might be snooping around here ...

You may just have let the cat out of the bag!

:haha:

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Like I say "Is not what you have but how you use it" :D

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

The way I see it, TPTB will use the socialistic conditioning that 90% of the sheeple have absorbed over the past decades. Hoarders and savers will be forced to "share" their supplies with the community at large and laws against stockpiling will go into effect. I'm pretty sure that there are already Presidential Executive orders already in place waiting to be enacted regarding this.

A socialist like Hitlery could use her Presidency to bring these to fruition, paint survivalists, or those that prepare as a threat and cheats to the system and community in general, in a time of dispair, there will be plenty that support her push.

Divide and conquer, the haves vs the have-nots with the gov't being the judge and rule of law, exhonerates them in power and merely helps broaden the divide between ruling class and serfdom....which is what this is all about.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

gunner:

:dito:
Somehow this message is not getting across to the sheeple.
Why they can't see what we do is simply mindboggling in it's obvious manifestations.It's a no brainer.........they are doomed.

As long as the train is rolling JSP sees no sign of mechanical failure.
The fact that the train is running out of fuel and coasting downhill also seems to be a non issue.

The closer we get to anarchy and economic meltdown makes me realize just how far the members here a GIM have split from the program.

My worst fears are escalating in proportion to the severity of the situation as the clock ticks the countdown day by day.

Maybe our karma has kicked in and rescued a chosen few for survival when TSHTF.....maybe not.All I can do is prepare for the worst and expect the worst;otherwise a half assed effort may not cut it...

:D :D

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Looking back at some earlier posts in this thread I thought it was a little funny when I read about the long fingernails... I picked up a particular eye gauge/popping out technique from a guy I used to know. To enhance the effect I used to grow my thumbnails a little long. I find that idea a little disturbing now, though the technique itself remains fundamentally solid for disparity of force situations.

I learned about slings because they are an effective long range weapon that weighs nothing, uses free ammo, takes up virtually no space and can easily be made from materials found in just about any environment. They are so lowtech they are completley undetectable, you could confidently stroll right through security checkpoints with one. With the right training they're even effective at close quarters or in hand to hand fighting. I used to be good at archery, too, though my skills in that area are a little rusty.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

I accidentally used that trick on a guy that was beating the ever-lovin' crap outta me many, many years ago. You want to end a fracas quickly, that'll do it. Even years later, when I'd see the guy in a bar or around town, he'd make a beeline for the door.


Definitely a skill you should pick back up. Efficient, quiet, arrows are reuseable at least up to a point, and if you are a hunter, gives you an excuse to spend even more time in the woods. I actually prefer bow to rifle while hunting and spent several seasons using no guns whatsoever.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Ok, now you've piqued my interest, please explain.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

1-- bullshit
2-- I've been listening to patriotard radio and going to gun shows for decades. The sky hasnt fallen yet. My dehydrated food stocks are so old they've turned to dust. I am ok on G&A because I am a recreational shooter.
3-- even in the most anarchic "failed states" there are still legal-administrative mechanisms which are available to those who have the skill and resources to use them.

The problem I have with the whole patriot/survivalist/racialist community is that there is an ongoing and constant lack of interest in the situation as it is and which it is likely to remain, by contrast, there is all this "sky is falling" crap alternating with eschatological fantasies of Jesus or Hilter coming down from the sky to bail "us" out.

Newsflash! 1-- things are bad and may get worse. but-- they may get better too! don't sell your home and become a stylite just yet.

2-- no "great leaders" are going to do the heavy lifting for us. "God helps those who help themselves."

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Can you give me the book, chapter and verse where that came from? :wink:

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Learned that in the School of hard knocks.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

I have come to the conclusion that a complete collapse of civilization is unlikely, as long as there are people there will always be a heirarchical power structure, commerce and trade specialization. I do believe it is *highly* likely we will move towards an ever stricter police state model as time goes on... however we have recently been making some pretty big gains in the area of the Second Ammendment, which is an excellent barometer for the overall level of freedom in a society. I am very worried about NOLA on a large scale and I don't like the idea of compulsory NAIS, but I'm uncertain what will touch that off or when.

bl96S5eu,

To give a general idea, hold your arms stretched out in front of you with your hands oriented so the pinky side edge is bottomost, and the top/thumb side should be inclined about 45 degrees towards the center line of your body. Make your thumbs like hooks, then rotate the pinky side of your hands outward till the pinky is topmost and your palms face outward. That is the general motion. To imagine how it works, imagine launching those hooked thumbs straight out like a squid into the badguy's tear duct, then rotate to pop badguy's eyes out of their sockets. It is gross, but it is highly effective and probably the only technique I know which truly will work regardless of size and strength disparities with only a very minimum ammount of training. The only catch is you still have to be able get your thumbs in the badguy so you do need to either be lucky or know a little bit about fighting in general. If you do it right though it works every time, and if the badguy can't see you he isn't likely to be very effective in any attempts to hurt you. It's much better than trying to punch out a 300lbs steroid monster with a keychain doodad.

I also recccomend Fox Labs pepper spray, a medium fog. People call it the devil in a can, that's about right. The nice thing about the fog is you can spray it behind you as you run and your pursuers will get a lungfull then drop the the ground convulsing as they are starved of oxygen. Just imagine running, huffing and puffing and drawing a deep breath of that stuff... :eek: Anyway, I like to keep the large 1lbs fog units handy in case of riots, in less than a minute I can create an area of denial, I can close off my street to a mob. Mobs also panic and break apart when they are hit with gas, for that reason have a few of the pepper grenades, as well. You can even rig a fog or pepper grenade unit as a boobytrap in your stashbox or honeypot. All of which is much better than starting an eyeball collection, but there you go in case you ever need it.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

I'm still trying to figure out the creative use of furniture/ventilation fans technique and a pump shotgun. Wondering if a drangon's breath round is involved and some gasoline. In a SHTF scenario where an armed gang invades your home sporting some fake badges, it would be good to know how to defend my personal castle. I've heard about the creative use of ceiling fans and open bottles of gasoline.

In fact, 2 years ago in my town, after hurricane Jeanne, there were 3 guys in a van going door to door saying that they were with the auxiliary police and that they were supposed to evacuate the area and were checking to see if everyone was still okay. If no one answered, they would break into the house and steal stuff. Since no one had a hard line phone and since most cell towers were down, they were able to hit a few houses and get away with it.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

It doesn't require gasoline. The tactics that will be used by an entry team are very predictable and the assaulters themselves are not supermen. You basically need to do two things,

1) detect them
2) trip them up to buy you time to respond

Architecture and construction materials can do a lot towards that end. The more you home can resist bullets and channel attackers into restrictions the better. Since most of us aren't building the ultimate defensible house we have to work with what we have. First, have a dog, or several. The dog can do the detecting for you, but they've been known to shoot dogs so several dogs is always a good thing, especially inside and outside dogs. They don't have to attack the entry team, just bark so you know something's up. Meanwhile, back in your batcave you've arranged your furniture and appliances in such a way that there is no easy way to come in through your windows and doors, deliberately break up the flow of traffic. If you can get them to stack up, even better. They'll be wearing helmets and vests and likely have a shieldman out front. Aim the shotgun for the unarmored parts, typically the legs. You can get creative here with smoke and pepper, you can rig your doors and windows to greet entry teams with such automatically. If you happen to repel the boarders in their initial assault they'll fall back, surround your position and at some point tear gas you. The largest congregation of them will likely be where the parking is, front yard. Set up your ventilation fans to draw fresh air in at one side of the house and vent the tear gas in the direction the badguys most likely are congregated in greatest numbers, not all of them will be wearing a mask. At this point you need to get out of your house and never come back. If you don't have an escape tunnel you'll need to blast your way out. If you understand the principle by which the fuel air explosive works you can make a hole in the blockade easily and inexpensively.

Those are just generalizations and tactics can be discussed in greater detail but the point is to have your own armor and weapons and prepared defenses. If you have the option have bulletproof walls, doors and windows. At least make your bedroom a bulletproof cocoon, since badguys like to come when you're sleeping. Thick lexan or similar windows can bounce teargas canisters even if they won't stop bullets. If you have a nice restriction like a long hallway, a single belted magnum can wreak havoc on a stack. Don't go into the fight expecting to lose, don't set yourself up to lose. At the very least make them pay a heavy price for coming after you.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

I remember when I was at the We The People conference with my brother in law about 2 years ago in DC, we met and spoke with Joe Bannister. He was an IRS enforcer, who realized the criminality of the system, resigned and took a position of opposition. When they came after him for tax evasion, he was saying that they did the typical 14 man assault team, MP5s and a made a big grandstand approach in front of his neighbors. Obviously considering who he was and the upstanding character of his family, they did it more for show to shame him in front of his neighbors (and taint the jury pool,intimidate and reduce credibility in his neighborhood). They came for him during daylight hours although for the most part, I assume nightime operations are the prefered method.

Any idea about the use of night-vision eq, standard perimeter security (in ft/yds) and # of assault members? I'd assume a lot would depend on threat assessment and topography but just looking for a general rule of thumb....if there is one.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Night vision is gee-whiz gear when it comes to securing your home from such an attack, even though it has some real utility under certain circumstances it doesn't give any particular advantage in your living room especially since you can control the illumination of your interior space. FLIR is really scary on helicopters, especially those mounting other weapons, scary enough under those circumstances I would not operate at night if I knew I had to go up against them. At least in broad daylight I have as good a chance of spotting them as they have of spotting me. It can be useful to have even some primitive NV equipment of your own if for no other reason than to be able to tell if someone is using active IR illumination in your area.

That isn't what we're talking about, though. If they use nightvision against you the only circumstance under which is gives them an advantage is if they are using it in the darkness outside to recon your home. That doesn't even really matter because you won't be aware of their presence till they arrive on your property anyway.


I wouldn't get stressed out over the presence of MP-5's. They're a pistol caliber carbine on full auto. Sure, they'll kill you stone dead, so will a host of other firearms, you survive by not getting shot by any gun. Yeah, I know... Flashbangs are a bigger problem. Regarding their numbers, it's all relative to the defensive quality of your structure. If it is highly bullet resistant and does not allow easy access you can hold off a significant number of badguys for a significant ammount of time. Just having twenty guys on a team doesn't mean much if they have to come at you single file through a long hallway. A lone defender could extract quite a toll on the invaders in that situation. The problem is either morons or evil geniuses design and build most homes forgetting the whole point of a house is shelter, you go inside to get away from stuff that's outside. A whole bunch of large glass windows and weak doors does not work in your favor.

I would not expect a particularly large team in the case of the kinds of sweeps and roundups we're talking about, there would simply not be enough manpower. Most likely, unless you're a really juicy target, you will get your local stormtroopers. If it happens it will be very noisy, if you aren't one of the first homes they take down you might consider pre-emptively hitting the road. That brings us full circle, being aware of the invasion as early as possible. Everything else is just standard defense in depth and tactical overmatch.

I wish I could find a link, but there was a case a while back involving a drug dealer that successfully warded off a no-knock. When the entry team came through he didn't know them from a rival gang and killed or wounded the lot of them before he realized what had happened. I do believe he got cleared of any charges for that aspect of the incident as he successfully argued that as far as the shootings were concerned all he knew was guys with guns jumped through his windows.


I can't speak about a preference for day or night operations, but I do know they prefer to take people down when they think an attack won't be expected. This is why people are sometimes picked up on their way to or from work. If you're a normal guy you can be counted on sleeping at night. Any which way you cut it that is when you are most vulnerable and need the most protection. Windows in first floor bedrooms confuse and enrage me.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

I agree about the weaknesses in a home shelter. Houses are designed and built to protect people from the elements only, not to provide protection from criminals (with or without badges). This helps companies like ADT make money by selling you a false sense of security by installing bells and whistles and an automatic phone call to the cops, miles away - both physically and mentally.

As far as FLIR and "HotShot" used here in Florida - yeah, pretty scary stuff, total transparency and no sense of privacy what-so-ever. Add on to that satelite monitoring (if desired), digitized medical, legal, financial records and an easily compromised system that ties it all together - - land of the free?

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Whew,!!! good stuff and thanks Rev 127.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

ISTR a court case many moons ago concerning thermal imagry and a pot bust.

The charges was thrown out since the court ruled that the cops needed a warrent before using the thermal imager.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

I ever now and then hear helicopters flying low over suburban tact homes when visiting friends. I presume they're looking for heat signatures from grow operations. While I don't like drugs in my neighborhood, I don't like my government spying on me either. I feel that privacy should win out, neighbors can always report the drug operations after gathering some evidence.

Anyway, for the benefit of those who may not have thought about it, there are a couple really easy things you can do to improve your house's defensive value against any sort of criminal attack. You can plant rose bushes, cactus, spanish bayonet or similar large spikey plants outside your windows. Defensive landscaping. Also, 6 inches of sand will stop most bullets, even fired by rifles. If you were to take some 1/4" plywood and construct a box maybe 8" wide to be filled with sand, say something at least as high as the bottom of your windows, you could have a pretty good ballistic defense at least when crouching or crawling. Make it a little higher in the bedroom so a stray bullet can't hit you while you're sleeping. With some nice finishing and painting you can make it look like an intentional and pleasing ledge. Nets, which can be hidden by curtains or made to be secure but removable, can be attached to studs or anchors in block walls. When somebody breaks down your door or smashes a window and tries to rush in, they get bounced or entangled by the netting. I always thought it would be cool to have a nice six foot deep pit just inside my front, back and side doors. I could cover it when I'm up and about, and raise the drawbridge when I go to bed or setlte in for the night. Can you imagine a would-be home invader doing a Wile-E-Coyote after smashing through your door and rushing in?! Much fun! Basements make it too easy. If you have flower beds and such outside your house, or a walkway, use gravel as it is noisy when walked upon and cleverly placed it can be attractive and alert you to somebody snooping around on your property. I had to do some training on moving silently and gravel, along with dry leaves, are definately tough to move quietly on. It can be done but it's so slow. You can still buy bear traps if you look around, and they'll snap a 2x4 in half when those jaws close. Poor man's landmine, and reuseable to boot! I plan on deploying them if a NOLA situation ever comes to my town.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Thanks for some good info - great ideas and perfect timing on the landscaping thing, I've been getting ready to do some work and I'll factor these ideas into the equation. Here in Florida, bougenvelia should make for a nice ornamental hedge near the windows and a raised burm will make for good variation in the landscape.

SOL on the cellar/pitfall trap, but it is indeed clever :^)


Great thread !!

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

The pitfall can actually work well with trailers and manufactured homes, which otherwise have terrible defensive value. Most of these buildings are a good two or three feet above the ground as they set on blocks and that is enough for a man to fall in and impede further forward movement while simultaneously creating and obstactle for anyone behind him trying to come in. Especially if a bear trap is involved. :D

On that subject, there is no balllistic protection to speak of affforded by the walls of such homes. The first two things you want to do if you are suddenly taking fire are vacate the location you were initially a target in and seek cover. A defensive trap door in the bedroom and/or living room that drops you into a prepared position, buy some sandbags, under your trailer gives you somewhere better to be. The nice thing here is you can have a full fledged fighting position under there and you'll be concealed by your skirting as well as being physically in a location at a level that one would not normally expect to find a human being at. You could likely get a number of shots off before anybody realized where you went. Pop off some smoke and pepper upstairs before you jump in your hideyhole to impede entry and search. You also need a way out, since you have a large concealed area in which to pile dirt you could easily dig an escape tunnel leading to the nearest acceptable concealment, be it some woods, a park or a neighbor's a few lots over, then beat feet.

A remote start for your car can be a great diversionary tool.


Yeah, I've been doing some remodeling on my place, some defensive upgrades, too. I have no interest in looking for any trouble whatsoever, but if trouble comes looking for me I want to be sure it finds a lot more than it bargained for.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

you guys just drooling over the chance to play Robert J Matthews or Branch Davidian, or what?

and I thought it was only the tax resisters who wanted to end up like Gordon Kahl....

Let's bring this back down to earth. There is no scenario where the cops storm your house with a swat team, and you win by resisting overwhelming force. better to not give them an excuse to execute you and live to fight them another day even if it's from a jail cell.

I know that's not the internet warrior bravado some people like to hear, but I'm thinking reality here folks.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Reality? It has happened in reality already. Beating them back isn't the hard part, it's the aftermath that you have to consider. In one widely publicized case where the stormtroopers were all killed/wounded it went to court and the man, a drug dealer nonetheless, was not punished for what he did because it was successfully argued he didn't know the stormtroopers from any other home invader as the attack happened so fast. Oh, and then there's Ruby Ridge, too. Randy Weaver won the court case against the government.

So there you have it, aftermath. What comes next? Take it to court or hit the road or do a Branch Davidian last stand. Since I am a law abiding citizen nobody is coming after me unless they are the common sort of home invaders or else the end result of a runaway criminal government. In either case you can bet your blue butt I'll take my chances fighting a defensive battle on my home turf over relying on the mercy of my criminal attackers. If it is some kind of gestapo sent by some psychotic police state life will be untenable anyway and the courts will be untrustworthy, so the obvious choice is just to melt away after the immediate threat is stopped. It isn't that hard to run. If you fight and then stay in your house, yes, you will be beaten when the reinforcements show up.

As far as internet warriors go, I don't bother. Everybody has a bigger weiner than everybody else. Everybody is or was or knew an uber-elite megaforce power ranger working for whichever blackbag TLA is the flavor of the day, all trained to react in a milisecond, without thinking, with fighting skills so finely honed they can't demonstrate them because they'd kill you. It may work on the chicks, but not on me.

If you want to talk about reality many people sucessfully defend their homes every day. We can certainly discuss the enormous body of work available for review representing these cases. Sitting around waiting to be killed after first witnessing the rape and murder of your family, or in the .gov scenario being dragged off to federal pound me in the ass prison isn't reality, it is stupid. A prepared defense in depth is smart.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

you say randy weaver won his case against the government. meantime, he lost a wife and a son and a dog.

a few million for a beloved wife and son? I'd prefer to keep the wife and son.

you are a lot more likely to be rolled by a thug on the street than suffer "home invasion" unless you life in an extremely crappy neighborhood. I have looked at the crime reports and they are usually in bad neighborhoods.

aka, black neighborhoods. stay out of them.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

I would like to confirm what Sukhoi_fan is saying about the IR. I know a guy who knows a guy (yeah thats it lol). Who was being chased by the police helicopter at night. Was running down a back alley with the chopper right behind him. The spot light was right on him but the chopper was going too fast and overshot. Thats when he found cover under a large spruce tree. The helicopter circled for about 15 minutes then flew off. I would assume that they couldn't see him. Also pretty sure that they have IR because that chopper is used mostly at night.

Also I think that the way the media portrays the police isn't even realistic. They don't always get there man. It's just not publicized when they screw up often because that would make them look bad and encourage crime.

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

One "decoy" trick the helicopter guys like to do is move the searchlight somewhere else after the suspect hides, as if they have lost him - all the while keeping the IR trained on the place where the suspect was last seen and calling the location in to the ground units. Often the suspect will feel emboldened and leave cover to get farther away from the chopper, which appears to him to be looking elsewhere. All the while his IR position is being updated to those on the ground. I watched this scenario unfold on a video that the local sheriff's department made of a suspect chase which was on the evening news. He jumped a fence thinking he'd given them the slip - and landed right in their arms.

Ragnarok

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

This makes me think of the TV show COPS. I love watching it but they catch the guys too much. Finally, I saw the first escape in years the other night. Made my day! :D

I love rooting for the accused.

Blorp

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

Does anyone know what ever happened to this poor guy?

Re: Good reason to keep your preps to yourself
 

The difference between

Prep and perp

Is a thin one indeed.


Especially when the gummint

Gets involved.


I'm not asking for anyone

To put their beliefs on the line, here.

Just think about it.

scyth